The Harvest Moon Consortium

[Christopher]

It occurs to me that one of the main reasons I have never really gotten my own PW dreams off the ground is... well a long list of reasons. We each want to build worlds according to our own vision. I cannot imagine how many PW teams have fell apart because of internal conflicts. But the work load even for one person?!? How many successful PW are out their from a team of ONE?

Another of my biggest problems has always been something more is coming. I started out NWN custom content pre-CEP and wow what a pain. A new patch would come out and I would have to rework all my templates. More content was coming out that was better then what I had. At what point do you say, ok. I have all I will ever need not I just have to build?

Same thing with scripts. I am not a coder at all. I am a cut & paste artist :p I can follow directions and put scripts where they belong. But updates were always coming out. New systems that were better then other or had more options. I followed HCR for years before it died out (oh I am sure on CC person is still working on it somewhere).

With 1.69 around the corner we will reach the pinnacle of the NWN evolution. The last of the great tilesets are being shored up (some of them here). We only have a window of a 1-2 years before NWN will be only a cult following.

At this time NWN Diamond Edition is still on the shelves at Best Buy. Target no longer carries it in Minnesota. So for those of us still holding on it almost to the time to "Shit or get off the pot."

My eight year old's computer will never run NWN2. He has been bugging me when are we going to play Dad? I am running out of excuses... :p

[Daijin]

[QUOTE=Christopher;10683]1: But the work load even for one person?!? How many successful PW are out their from a team of ONE?

2: Another of my biggest problems has always been something more is coming. I started out NWN custom content pre-CEP and wow what a pain. A new patch would come out and I would have to rework all my templates. More content was coming out that was better then what I had. At what point do you say, ok. I have all I will ever need not I just have to build?

3: Same thing with scripts. I am not a coder at all. I am a cut & paste artist :p I can follow directions and put scripts where they belong. But updates were always coming out. New systems that were better then other or had more options. I followed HCR for years before it died out (oh I am sure on CC person is still working on it somewhere).
[/QUOTE]

1: I have did this, for the last 5 years till Jan 3rd, 2008. Then I decided to take a long break (still am on break, awaiting 1.69 stuff). It was private word of mouth campaign PW server up only once or twice a week. I would say it was successful for having 5 to 27 people every time it was up.
One man team is indeed difficult and exhausting :wall: For the most part, it took almost an average of 86 hours per week with an occassional 1 to 2 week break.

2: Yeah, its easier if you break everything down into your own format of Haks like i did for the Dunjon Legends Hakpacks. Updating systems wasnt too bad, long as you kept track of all related scripts and hak resources for addition/removal in Excel spreadsheet.


3: HCR is still around: http://www.neises.com/forums/?
ShadowM made a different form of HCR, that I am going to attempt to merge with PRC 3.2, cep 2.1 and patch 1.69 when they are out: http://nwvault.ign.com/View.php?view=Hakpaks.Detail&id=7084
I, myself am a copy and paste scripter

[s030363l]

I have also thought about a PW but never seem to have the time nor the resources to accomplish such. I have since wanted to create a module based campaign going back to the original roots of PnP campaigns. Although it may never come to fruition it would be based on Gary Gygax’s original “World of Greyhawk” with a map based travel system. The large base module would be the City of Greyhawk from which all of the campaign modules would be based. I started developing tilesets just to cover specific campaign areas CC_City being used for the base City of Greyhawk and the Barbaric North to cover the farthest reaches of the campaign but there is still so much to be done.

Other Custom content authors have contributed some nice sets to aid in campaign areas but there are still areas left uncovered. Sets still needing to be accomplished are an elven tree type city, underground dwarven kingdom and probably at least 4 to 5 others. This is where my talent stops as I lack the creative ability to do creatures and animate them properly and my scripting knowledge leaves much to be desired although I have kept note of some very nice packages developed by community members. This is but a pipe dream but I thought I would share it.

[Wolfsoul]

Not a PWplayer.. but I do have some ideas Trying to think up a campaign now

[Winterhawk99]

I Started playing with a group in the 80s when 1rst edition was in its heyday. Ive played in campaigns on Greyhawk,Krynn,Ravenloft, and Fearun in those days its was great fun. We often did a combination of mods like against the giants or Bloodstone pass and any number of dm campaigns rolling dice and having fun.

A PW for me should be versitile enough for Dms to draw up campaigns with a main story background thats consistant. What I did with my pw is set up a good staff of dms, builders and scripters then open it between thursday to sunday. then monday- wednesday fix, make dm areas for campaigns and make new areas for the world.

I think weve accomplished the feel of a pnp world and play very much like the old days of throwing dice with the versitility of how we set the world up and with downtime to quickly replace, modify and redevelop areas as the world progresses in time and with players interactions with it.

so for me

A strong background story
versitility to change as players interact with the world
good Dms running campaigns focused on player storys
Scripting and builders that dont let limits hamper the visions of what they want to accomplish

[9fires]

Lemme see here I've worked almost constantly since the dawn of NW in the PW field and I just frakkin' quit my latest one... Don't play on that server I pointed out there, earlier.. I'm really sorry about that... But its been sabotaged and will die, weeping. Lack of greater vision, shoddy scripting, power tripping and that thing, I said on another post about in fighting just ruined it for me.

The most important thing in any PW is PC freedom, immersive environs and proof read conversations... I'm a gamer and a builder, the whole DM thing don't really invigorate me, I like to play, role play and kick the tar outta stuff. That's how I roll.

Here's my thoughts on the whole PW

1. Have a clear and defined plan of where you want to be by the end of the week. Don't map it out to it conclusion, just to the next 'phase'.

2. Avoid overarching, world spanning stories. For two reasons - most players don't care and secondly, its not very realistic. Does this world have an overaching tale? Don't think so. If it does, I'm gonna boot the author in junk at the very first opportunity.
An overacting world story, unless written by a professional writer will come off as purdy weak, regardless of how many times you proof read it. If you aren't getting paid to write, don't fancy yourself the next Martin.. Cuz ya just ain't.
That's not to say don't have stories or a plot, just make them small and numerous. Interwoven whenever possible. Best thing to do is reuse areas, get them to go back five or six times to your Scary Mountain of Doom, each time for a different reason. 1 quest per map is a frakkin' weak methodology and makes me see red. Not too mention it clutters up your workspace with next to useless crap.

3. The first FIVE minutes inside of a module will likely determine that player's fate. If you BORE them with a bunch of 'Click Me' and 'Examine Me' Signs ... they'll fall asleep and leave. Hit them with some thing the INSTANT the walk in... For example, a friendly PC walks up and initiates a convo. Or blast them with a lightning bolt... provided of course, the area is stormy. Give them an initial experience that sticks with them and is as rousing, as possible. The most successful servers grab you from the word Go. Don't bore the snot out of them with a library of nonsensical rules or a glut of 'lore'... really hate that word btw... 'Lore' *sneers* How frakkin' pretentious. If you have a rich and detailed history of your world... build a library and put it there. Anyone who is interested will read it. Lest you forget there are many different types of players and to be successful, you'll need to satisfy all of them.

4. Avoid this concept of OoC and IC text in your mod... if the flow of information is kept strictly in the context of the game, the point of whether its meta game info or the menu at your favorite inn.. the point becomes moot.

5. As an admin, don't frakkin' shout, unless its descriptive text designed to further a plot.

6. Keep it simple, but fathomless.

7. Never put anything that is unfinished into live play.

8. Don't pay any mind to the glut of suggestions your players will give you. Cuz, they will, and they will be endless. The better your game is, the more ideas they will have. Take each one of their suggestions firstly, with a grain of salt and secondly, as proof you're doing your job.

9. Unless you're using seamless transitions, close your edges. Invisible walls suck, unless they can be deactivated by a switch, cleverly hidden somewhere nearby.

10. Go big. Think small. Remember, the devil is in the details.

11. Proof read everything. From item description to the special objects you create. If its a berry bush, when I examine it it better not read 'A carefully constructed marker denoting a point of interest'. That plays into several of my previous points.

12. Learn the word 'Verisimilitude', engrave it on your heart.

13. Tricks, traps and treasure. Reward appropriately to the challenges you present. Fail in this and you're either a stingy bastiche or you're Monty Hall. Either way, you'll lose control of the situation fast.

14. If you gather in a team, make frakkin' sure they all have the freedom and the tools they'll require to excercise their imaginations. Foster that, regardless of where they go with it. That said, make bloody sure they each have an assigned role and that they know EXACTLY what is expected from them. No half measures, no double talk and no shenanigans. One misspoken word from the lead, can set the entire frakkin' thing aflame... Gawds, I know this one all too well.

15. PLAY the world you've built. Do not float around in it as DM ghost. Get down in the trenches, with your players and for the love of John, Paul, and Ringo, don't frakkin' smurf your character. Earn your levels, items and battlescars. Just because you can boost your character's stats to 40, don't mean you should. Play by the ruleset you scripted, in the world you built. That really can't be said enough. It is very easy as an admin to lose touch with the world. It is hard to feel the pulse of thing, if all you see of it is, the grid you're painting.

16. Play test, play test, play test. If you put a map in the live mod with a broken transition... yer a retard and deserve the mockery they'll whisper behind your back.

17. Build a Community. Don't ever forget that or neglect it. Be big brother, dad and buddy to every single toon that rolls up. It is best to always appear to be in a position of irrefutable control. Spaz out in public and you'll bleed off the players.

Disregard any of what I just said at your peril.

Merry Xmas.

[coolmac55]

Greeting,

First rule; is that all builders play the world they build just like any other Same rules apply to the builders as do the players. For us, the builders like playing as much as building.

Another rule for builders: They must perfect their areas before they can add more. We go through them and through them. Picking apart anything that catches the eye.

One thing that bothered me in many PW I tried, was their crazy rules. Rules for everything without rhyme or reason. The slightest change in basic rules can completely change the world.

I've never played Pen & Paper, I played Quake II and games like that up until NWN came out. I got hooked on RP then and that's it for me.

Fortunately I have a builder who like to play my style so I get what I want.

It's very hard to make a PW that works good. Way too much work for one person. It's a Fantasy game, but there needs to be some connection with reality so that players can relate. It's like humor, you've got to be able to associate with it for it to work well.

I do agree with an earlier poster about the "world spanning stories". I like small stories, or I don't even think about it. I don't read most things, I just go for the action, but I know others that read everything. I see their excitement when interesting quest are found. It's good to have some builders for that style also.

I hate random loot drops and re-spawn. No penalty for failure.

Players can wear you out. not just them; you get hammered on all sides. Even if you have a good world, lag can kill you. I know people who would love to play but their connection is not up to it. Then there's the areas you build. I've been to worlds where the whole server will come to a stop if you go in certain areas.

A PW is a lot of work.
CoolMac

[RangerSG]

I played way back in the days of 1st ed. as well (indeed, blue book D&D before AD&D existed for me). Also, I think I'm rather unusual in that I have been active in both the SP & MP sides of the community, so I think I can fairly say that what I look for in one is not the same as what I look for in a the other.

When I look at an SP mod, I'm honestly looking for story first. I see SP gaming as very much an "interactive novel." As such, I'm fine if it's very focused in terms of gameplay (like Valine's DwR series, for instance) or linear. Replayability in SP mods to me comes from the same factors as how I would decide if I wish to re-read a book. Is it a good story? Do I like the characters? Is it told effectively?

Although my PW (The Exilic Chronicles) is based on a world I worked on for a novel, when Linda and I decided to work it into a PW, I knew that although the story still is important, a PW is not just "one" story. It's the story of all the PCs and signature NPCs that interact and make a world live. There's not just one plot in a Persistant World. There's several. Not all of equal importance across the world, but each one of central importance to one or more characters. A quality PW to me is a canvas on which those stories can be told well. I shouldn't be about trying to make the players tell their story my way. I should want to include their stories in the overarching meta-narrative of my world. The systems I use to do that are important, but of secondary importance to the willingness of me as an owner and DM to get the player to tell their story in the framework of the world I've created.

So a SP mod can be more "focused" on a single story as it were. And a PW is, ideally, a collaborative effort that allows many players to tell their stories as part of a much larger whole.

[chaos_theocrat]

The trouble I've had when designing modules for Nwn is twofold, and these two reasons are why I don't make modules as often as prefabs.

Reason 1: "I have too big of an imagination sometimes!" :rolleyes:

A prime example of Reason 1. is my module Knights of the Holy Grail. It began small, as a remake of the old Sierra adventure game Conquests of Camelot. The trouble was, the beta version which was exact to the Sierra game was too easy for most Nwn players, who suggested I make it a more challenging game. Once I got out of the beta phase, I began to add my own ideas to it. At the time, I was playing Ultima Online a *lot* and was very inspired by that. As a result, I added MMO-style encounters and the option to explore a huge, open-ended gameworld that consisted of the whole of southern England, part of Ireland, the land of Ys, and the Middle Eastern cities of Gaza and Jerusalem as they were during the Arthurian age and into the time of the Crusades. Then, for a unique death system, I made it that when you died you'd go to a detailed afterlife where you'd be able to adventure in Hell, Heaven, Purgatory, and the Shadow Plane, with the option of returning through the Shadow Plane to the material plane as a wraith. I wanted death to be a painful experience, but I also wanted it to be equally painful to come back to life again. That way, instead of the heavy penalties or perma-death some modules use, I'd have a system that made death and rebirth themselves the penalty for being careless. Then, I began to prepare to transition the module into a PW, but halfway through I discovered that a PW had to be multiplayer, and that conflicted with my already-scripted single-player campaign in the module. So, I left it as a single-player game with a PW style to it. And that was just the beginning!

Then, I started my research, reading various books based on the Arthurian legend as well as the King of Ys novels about King Gradlon, who was a contemporary of Arthur's. I also studied Celtic and Norse mythologies, as well as the religions of that era. Medieval Christianity, Islam, Gnosticism, and others. All of these sources gave me ideas that went into the game. I expanded the ending to include a Da Vinci Code style conspiracy, and a bit of time travel too. My last touches were little bits of realism. Apple trees you could pick the apples from, libraries you could do real research in, guilds you could join. An Assassins guild, a Masonic guild of knights, an order of Gnostics, and the Londinium City Guard were just some of them. After a while, I wasn't remaking an old game. I was creating a living and breathing world that was a recreation of a whole historical era and it's beliefs. I even included cameos of people I knew in real life and modeled the library in England after my own home town's public library. Pretty much like what Richard Garriott did when he was designing Ultima. When it was done, it was far larger and more complex than I initially envisioned it.

As a result of my attention to realism and detail, Knights of the Holy Grail was a very hard game to beat. It's combat was rough and furious, and you needed a horse to get from one place to another because of the size and massive scope of the game world. I intended for it to be a game you'd need to take your time with. Train, go up in your levels, explore, and learn about the world you're in. Then, worry about questing and righting all the world's wrongs. It was to be a simulation of really being a knight on the quest for the Holy Grail, and because of that a lot of players were very disappointed. I learned that a lot of Nwn players look for modules that are basic. Point a to point b RPGs with goals neatly spelled out for them. My project was exactly the opposite of that. A non-linear game world where things aren't always what they seem, NPCs don't always tell the truth, and goals need to be discovered and challeneged with care. However, a lot of the players of it didn't take the time to really delve into the game, and just wrote it off as hack n' slash without seeing the importance of all the RPG elements that were there besides the hack n' slash. Thusly, to this day, I consider Knights of the Holy Grail to be a module intended for patient players only. It was an epic that took me a year to build, from 2005 to 2006. In my real life, many changes occured in that time. My mother died, my grandfather died, and those were hard times. Somehow, I finished my project though, and consider it one of the finest works I've ever released to the Nwn community. Not perfect, but fine nonetheless.

Reason 2: Updates, and Custom Content Choices.

By the Lords of Chaos, I've never seen so many updates for any game! I was happy when the final patch came out for Nwn, yet sad too. I was happy because I no longer needed to worry about updating the game, but I was sad at the realization that many people might take the final patch's release as a sign that Nwn's glory days are over, thus losing interest in it.
I still have a fervant interest in Nwn. Tonight, I released my latest prefab, Thermopylae, to the Vault. Please! Check it out, try it out, give it a vote if you like it. Nwn needs it's community to stay active and interested, most especially since so many have left it over the years for one reason or another. I was sad when Rome left, since her Tales of Celts modules greatly inspired me in many ways. But I digress... today, with the final patch over and done, the only thing that holds me back sometimes from finishing a module project is that there are so many good choices when it comes to custom content that it is hard to choose what to use in a mod.

I remember back when I had to make my own compilation pack, Chaos Placeables, because the CEP didn't have everything I thought I'd need for mod building. Chaos Placeables began as an expansion of the hak pak I threw together for Knights of the Holy Grail. Today, I find the latest CEP, 2.2, to be so all-inclusive that it even has most of what I had in Chaos Placeables if not more. So I use the CEP more than I do my own pack! I think that's why I haven't yet updated Chaos Placeables to be CEPv2.2 compliant, although I may do so eventually just to be fully up to date.

As you may have noticed, I have always backed the community projects. The CEP, the CTP, and the CMP, primarily. I am behind them 100% for the simple reason that they are very quality work. The CEP inspired me when I was creating Chaos Placeables, the CTP inspired me when I was creating the CCR&BEXv5... and the CMP inspired me when I created the Ultimate Ultima Music Pack. CCR&BEXv5 started out when I created my own Rural tileset for use in a Rygar remake module that I never finished. I decided to take my Rural pack and make it fully compatible with a host of other high quality tilesets. Basically, anything not already featured in the CTP. The sole exception was the Gothic tilesets. Those were common to both the CTP and my CCR&BEXv5, but only because they were too good not to be included. Chandigar is a legend, one of the greatest, honestly! Now, with the CEP's tilesets that include many of the same things as CCR&BEXv5, I find myself again in a position where I am using my own pack less. That is not a bad thing by a longshot! What I like about CEPv2.2 is that you don't have to use it's tilesets. You could instead use CTP, CCR&BEXv5, or your own if you prefer. That's a modular approach not *too* dissimilar to that which I used in the design of CCR&BEXv5, so I salute them for thinking of the community first by doing it that way. So now, my only questions I have to ask myself when building a module is: Should I use CEPv2.2 by itself or with the CTP? Or pehaps with CCR&BEXv5? Or should I Just use CEPv2.1 with Chaos Placeables? The choices are all fantastic options to have! Music is easier to choose. In Knights of the Holy Grail, I made my own music pack, and typically that's the way I go with my modules. I'd only consider using the CMP in an epic-sized mod since otherwise I don't need that many music choices, and I'd only use my Ultimate Ultima Music pack in an Ultima module, if I ever made one. Lastly, as you know since I founded it, I fully support the CSP and would easily use that as my skybox hak of choice. Not just because I threw it together, but because it is the best choice for skies. So, variety can sometimes halt production of a mod, but variety is the spice of life, so it's best to have more choices than less.
The compilations I'm not a fan of are the CCP, which included placeables that conflicted with the CEP when it should only have included creatures.
The CPP, becuase since both the CEP and Chaos Placeables exist, another placeables pack is just repititious and unnecessary. And by the looks of it I won't be a fan of the upcoming Probject Q, since rumors say it could be in direct conflict with the CEP. I'm actually hoping they change their mind if that's the case and make their pack compatible with CEP. If not, it will be no loss, just another repititious and unnecessary pack we don't need.

So, what is my vision of a module? :thumb:

Something that remains uncompromisingly true to it's author's imaginative vision, as Knights of the Holy Grail was for me, and something that uses an interesting but appropriate selection of custom content chosen for it's ability to bring the module's world to life, not merely for the sake of using custom content. I only create modules with stories I find interesting, at times meaningful, and always entertaining. That's what makes Nwn great.

Last-Minute Thoughts: On The Importance of Giving Credit.

One thing I heartily believe is imporant is giving the creators of content credit for their creations. In all of my major compilations that I've ever released to the Vault, I have always given credit wherever and whenever it was possible to. Either in a readme, or on the main page, or something.
Chaos Placeables would be nothing were it not for the placeables that talented artists created. CCR&BEXv5 wouldn't have ever been possible without the sum of it's parts. And all of it's parts were created by great individuals! The CSP, likewise, could never have been created without the good people who created it's skies and then let them be brought together.
Whenever I've forgotten somebody, I always made it my business to go back and look them up to make sure their names would not be forgotten. In all cases, I've only ever used content that was OK'd by it's authors for free use. Never anything where the author requested it not be included, unlike those scoundrels who caused such trouble in the community of late.
Even a simple: "Thanks to all those who made this possible!" seems to be too much for certain rogues, which shows what a sad world we're living in.

In that spirit, I can't believe that people have issues giving credit for their use of somebody's custom content, as made evident in the recent heated community controversy regarding such! Is common kindness *so* hard to come by these days? What I honestly believe is that we don't need some database full of forms to ensure peoples' honesty. That would just make it more difficult for those of us who *are* doing the right thing. What we do need is for people to simply be more honorable, and for that honor to be encouraged more in community members. While many have left Nwn due to this controversy, I will yet remain... and I hope everyone here will too. It's a good community we have, filled with talented individuals, and it is a shame if we let a few bad apples sour the bunch for all of us. That's my feelings on this issue, anyway. I would've voiced them sooner, but since September I've had problems in real life to handle that couldn't wait. At any rate, I've said my piece on the matter and won't drag it out further.

On a Brighter Note: I've Got Some New Ideas!!!

Speaking of visions for modules, I've been getting all kinds of crazy little inspirations lately. My Thermopylae prefab was the result of studying the actual histories behind the movie 300, and I've also taken a liking to the study of fairy tales, and have begun a module based on some of the lesser known Slavic fairy tales such as Baba Yaga and Kochei the Deathless. I've gotten a tad bit of writer's block at the moment, but with more study, I'll have the module's overall plot worked out before you can say the magic words. "Klaatu, Barrada, Nikto?" *Picks up Necronomicon to check.* Yep!

That's all my recent thoughts about modules, Nwn, and the like. I know it's a lot, but I've been giving all this a lot of thought lately, and so there you have it. As you know by now, when I get on about something, I tend to go into some detail, since that's just in my nature. - Farewell 4 now!

[GM_ODA]

My vision of a PW I have lovingly crafted for the last six years, four of those solo. About a year and a half ago, I got lucky and found a talented lady programmer who shares my vision in building. Together we have streamlined all the code and added much more. I've built more than 2500 Areas for it, of which more than 800 are currently online in a massive no-lag no-crash module.

I am a FIEND for efficient and clean code - my only enemies are Lag and Crash and they fear to tread here for obvious reasons. The module is more than 160 megabytes in size and runs smooth and fast.

It features a central city, a young one (100 years old) and the still somewhat wild territory around it, the city's dealings with neighbors and its own citizen's interests keep intrigues flowing. A dwarven clan rules the lands east and is glad to have their new human neighbors to harvest the lumber from the western forests on behalf of the dwarves (who never much liked lumber-detail duty). Now the humans must brave the strange and dark forest and her fairy denizens to get at the precious commodity of lumber. The dwarves now offer silver and other goods from their smithy in exchange for the lumber, grain and other things the human city has brought. Orcs and the wild peoples rule the northland, a rugged and expansive place. There are ancient ruins to be found here and stories surrounding them to be discovered.

This is very much a PnP style world, plucked from my 30+ years as a gamer. We have added many spells from the original PnP game, including WISH, LIVEOAK, BLINK, TELEPORT, SIMULACRUM, MIRROR IMAGE and more than 40 others. Further we have added many features to enhance each class to be more like PnP.

This one is well worth the look. Aside from all this prodigious building, we have more than 700 players listed in the vault and are growing at a rate of more than 50 per month.

Come see what all the excitement is about!

Hope to see you online soon.

Be well. Game on.
GM_ODA
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24x7 we bring the game.
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