The Harvest Moon Consortium

[maxam.maxam]

Ok, so Diademus did not use shadows in his highly regarded Underdark tileset.

Last time I checked Six wasn't doing shadows in his tilesets (in the interiors at least).

An certain high profile modding site (cough, cough) has recently had many non-shadow comments appear in it's shoutbox...

So my question, I guess is, are Shadows worth the hassle? So far I have considered them possibly worth it, but I am starting to do some more organic terrain (Caves/Mines), and I am very tempted to not do shadows (a la diademus).

Any thoughts, suggestions?

[OldMansBeard]

My sentiments:

• If you are crafting the tiles from scratch and are able to make them good for shadows as you go along, do it.
• If you are adapting other peoples' tiles that are initially good for shadows, keep them good.
• Otherwise, take a hatchet to shadows and save yourself the agony.

[lord rosenkrantz]

So my question, I guess is, are Shadows worth the hassle? So far I have considered them possibly worth it, but I am starting to do some more organic terrain (Caves/Mines), and I am very tempted to not do shadows (a la diademus).

Any thoughts, suggestions?

I dropped shadows long ago, and since then I am fully enjoying the freedom and never had any slightest regret about it.

[Dragonessa]

I'm a big believer in killing shadows wherever possible as well. :thumb:

[maxam.maxam]

Thanks for taking the time to reply guys (and gal) - I really, really appreciate it.

When I discovered that Diademus' Underdark tileset didn't have shadows I was absolutely floored mainly because when I had taken it for a drive 'in game' I hadn't noticed (the beautiful texture work was a distraction).

I decided to stick with shadows in my new tileset, opting for non-rendering simple objects where possible for rendering speed. I still have some tiles that have reasonably complex shadow-casting geometry that noticeably cause a hit on frame rate with shadows turned on. To remove all shadows and not have to worry about this, even this late in the tilesets development is very, very tempting.

As I said in the first post, I am dipping my toe into cavern tiles in the same set, which is a shadow nightmare, but I'm not sure I would want a tileset that flips between shadows and non-shadows, so I'm leaning towards eliminating them altogether.

So at this stage I am inclined to remove shadows from the 'foundations' of a tile (walls, floor, etc), but leave them in for significant features (pillars, stalagmites/tites, daiseses:D, etc).

What do you think? At least if these parts cast shadows, it's in keeping with any placeables that may be lying around also...

[Bannor Bloodfist]

Makes sense Maxam.

You may be able to save some shadow hassles by just creating simplified non-rendering shadow boxes. The only option that gets checked is 'shadow'. You can use any texture you want for it, as it never gets rendered in game.

Complex shadows are a real pain. The engine doesn't like alpha's to cast shadows, it doesn't like doorways to cast shadows. It CAN do it, but it appears that you have to double face the object to get the proper shadows to work and that doubles your poly count. Where, with a simple box type shape, you can get a shadow to work easier with just the outside of the box being set to cast shadows.

Floors don't need shadows turned on, UNLESS yoo have raised terrain.
Ceilings also don't make sense to cast shadows, when working under ground as there would be NO sunlight at all anyway. So the only objects casting shadows, would cast them from source lights and torches only. (In other words, no mainlights at all, only source lights.)

I personally think that shadows DO make things look better, but you have to plan for them and create the tiles in such a way as to make the shadows work. It's a real pain on complicated shapes, which is where the simple 'shadow box' approach comes in handy. Even a simplified shadow makes the feeling more immersive in game.

[maxam.maxam]

You may be able to save some shadow hassles by just creating simplified non-rendering shadow boxes. The only option that gets checked is 'shadow'. You can use any texture you want for it, as it never gets rendered in game.

I hear that! That's actually what I meant above when I said non-rendering simple objects.

Complex shadows are a real pain.

Yah, curved surfaces are the bane of my existence!:mad:

The engine doesn't like doorways to cast shadows. It CAN do it, but it appears that you have to double face the object to get the proper shadows to work and that doubles your poly count.

I'm curious - what do you mean by double facing an object?

Floors don't need shadows turned on, UNLESS yoo have raised terrain.

Yup, for pits too. In my Classic Dungeon, I was just doing shadows for Floors near pit edges, but if the adjoining tile's floor didn't have shadows it could look messy, so I had to put shadows across the board.

I've also had an odd problem where geometry above a certain height (within a tile - not affected by raise lower) doesn't cast a shadow, for example, the Column of a pillar will cast a shadow, but the Capital does not. A roof never seems to want to cast a shadow either which should be important with my raised terrain.

For example let's say you've got a corridor on a lower level running along next to a room at a higher one.. Someone is standing in the room with a torch. The walls of the room and the corridor will cast shadows into the corridor, but not the corridor roof. Which looks really odd to someone standing in the corridor - suddenly there's this half-shadow taking up most of the corridor.

I personally think that shadows DO make things look better

Me too, hence the quandry.

but you have to plan for them and create the tiles in such a way as to make the shadows work. It's a real pain on complicated shapes, which is where the simple 'shadow box' approach comes in handy. Even a simplified shadow makes the feeling more immersive in game.

Yeah, it's the one's I can't replace with a simplified shape that give me grief - arches being a case in point.

Hey Bannor, thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed reply!

[Six]

Generally, shadows in an interior are pretty illogical. Reason being that the walls of a room will cast a shadow as though sun is shining over them - realistically since interiors have rooves, there is no way to have a top-down light source and thus the 'ambient' NWN shadows are pretty useless unless you only use tile light sources and set the area's ambient/diffuse to black. Even then, you get unrealistic shadows as the engine of course calculates shadows where objects are - as opposed to where light sources aren't.

In an exterior you have the additional problem of hills. You want to get a smooth shaded effect on a hill. With NWN's shadows you get a solid block of shadow that looks stupid. And yet if you don't give the ground shadows, then chasms etc will not cast shadows. This makes consistency pretty much impossible. And consistency is the key, in my opinion, to a good tileset.

Nobody has ever complained about the lack of shadows in any of my tilesets.

[Estelindis]

The more tile work I do, the more I hate shadows.

That being said, I think it's easier to make good shadows with completely original tiles than with ones that are adaptations of Bioware tiles... But, if one can get by without people noticing the lack of shadows, it does beg the question: why bother?

[maxam.maxam]

Nobody has ever complained about the lack of shadows in any of my tilesets.

But, if one can get by without people noticing the lack of shadows, it does beg the question: why bother?

You've both nailed it for me (sorry about my tardy reply). I've spent the best part of last night getting rid of every last shadow in my tileset. Not that I had any problem shadows per se (thanks CM3!), but now I can charge full steam ahead without, and have consistency in the tileset.

Thanks to everyone for your responses - they are very much appreciated!